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 Post subject: Re: Religion
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 01:26 
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Fergy wrote:
Ceekayed wrote:
Nost Gam nails it.

He does not. The law does not require equal time for evolution and creationism, but it removes the ban on teaching creationism.

It's like adding spires to the game. The choice is out there, but you do not have to use it.



First of, I do not believe I said they had to give it equal time or more.
That is not the point at all.
The point is and should only be that it has nothing to do with science at the level where evolution is being taught. I am trying to point out that the only good way to explain creationism scientifically is using an advanced level of how science is actually made and explain how it could work or could not work scientifically. The problem with teaching creationism in a regular science class is that all other sciences have plenty of scientific proof backing how it all is fitting together while creationism do not! It would make more sense to teach the students about quantum mechanics, string theory and dark matter but that too is not right at this level!
We have to teach students how the world works but at a level matching their school level.

Having a law saying you can teach your students something that has nothing to do with your subject is not a good idea.

If you really believe that creationism should be allowed in a science class room, because of "freedom to choice", then you believe it is okay for a math teacher to teach the student how to write English.
A math teacher should teach math because the time set up for that math class is so the students can learn how to do math. I am sure most math teachers could teach English but then we have to hope the English teacher will teach the students the math they then would be missing.

We cannot start having teacher decide to teach things that have nothing to do with their class.

Frankly that whole notion that this is a freedom of choice is a big shock to me! It would only shock me more if you believe a guy should be allowed to steal a car because it is his freedom of choice...

As pointed out by Ceekayed, this law is not freedom of choice for the students but gives the teacher the ability to FORCE the students not to get the higher quality teaching of science to fit in a mismatching subject.

I am very happy that I did not lose any of my basic knowledge of science because of some teacher abusing his freedom of choice to not teach science.

I can not stress enough that this does not belong in science and making ANYONE believe so is like teaching that earth is flat and if we reach the edge we would fall of earth.

There is no ethics to defend this and it is a dangerous way of ignoring the problems.

I am really upset about this as I could never imagine you Fergy could be so blinded by this - How can you believe this has anything to do with Freedom? It causes the direct opposite of freedom.


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 Post subject: Re: Religion
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 02:08 
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Ceekayed wrote:
Fergy wrote:
..


So you're arguing for fully independent and privatized education system. That stance I can understand and accept (while I don't necessarily agree that it'd be better).

However, the reality is that majority of kids go to public schools, and that majority of kids can't afford to choose any differently. Is this development still for the better in your opinion?
A public system with choice does already exist. It's with school vouchers, in essence it works like Dante said earlier.
Dante wrote:
I guess this is a bit offtopic, but i just wanted to point out that the public/private argument you make Fergy is relevant to the US, but not for instance to Sweden.

In Sweden _both_ private and public schools are funded by taxpayers, although some private schools charge additional fees as well.

This would give you the parent the choice on what your child learns, based on where you want to send them (assuming the schools are allowed to teach whatever they want). Doing this would be a huge power shift from politicians/bureaucrats to the masses.


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 Post subject: Re: Religion
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:14 
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Fergy wrote:
Dante wrote:
I guess this is a bit offtopic, but i just wanted to point out that the public/private argument you make Fergy is relevant to the US, but not for instance to Sweden.

In Sweden _both_ private and public schools are funded by taxpayers, although some private schools charge additional fees as well.

This would give you the parent the choice on what your child learns, based on where you want to send them (assuming the schools are allowed to teach whatever they want). Doing this would be a huge power shift from politicians/bureaucrats to the masses.


Well, i am a swede so obviously i like some regulation. ;) But i just dont think it is a great idea to let the schools decide all by themselves what to teach. Why should tax payer money pay for stuff that doesnt provide any benefit for the society (ie, anti-scientific ideas like creationism)?

Here we ofc have pretty strong regulations on what schools are allowed to teach, but the essence is still that people have the chance to choose. Most of the choice process is likely not so much about content, but rather quality and/or methods of teaching, but there is some content based choices as well.

Very few (if any?) non-muslims go to a muslim private school, but in such a school they still have 90% of the same curriculum as in any other swedish school. They will still be teaching a eurocentric (for the most part) world history, and christianity will play a big part. And ofc no creationism. ;)

The last 10% (picking numbers out of thin air, may well be less) might be stuff that is specific for that particular school, and then ofc some of the 90% might get some flavor of the schools theme although it has to match the national curriculum.


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 Post subject: Re: Religion
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 21:11 
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Umm how is this any different from teaching Evolution (as in Big Bang) in school? I was taught it and learned about it but it didn't mean I believe it. The same can go with teaching religion. I have my own beliefs but I am not against learning what other ideas are about.

I feel if it is being taught and not rammed down students throats as truth then its good for people to have an understanding of what is out there.

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 Post subject: Re: Religion
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 23:14 
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080 wrote:
Umm how is this any different from teaching Evolution (as in Big Bang) in school? I was taught it and learned about it but it didn't mean I believe it. The same can go with teaching religion. I have my own beliefs but I am not against learning what other ideas are about.

I feel if it is being taught and not rammed down students throats as truth then its good for people to have an understanding of what is out there.


Evolution theory (nothing to do with big bang, but that also) is a purely scientific theory and widely accepted as the most plausible explanation on how we came to be, while creationism is widely recognized as a fairy tale, especially in the scientific community. That is the difference.

You do not need belief to accept evolution/big bang. Sure there is a lot of room for speculation in both, but there is also a buttload of evidence to support both, whereas there is no evidence to support creationism. Some thousands of years old folklore doesn't count as evidence, btw.

Obviously schools can and should teach about religions altogether, as long as it's kept out of science classes, unless, you teach it purely from a scientific view (which would only lead to debunking the whole subject as Nost Gam already pointed out).

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 Post subject: Re: Religion
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 00:12 
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080 wrote:
Umm how is this any different from teaching Evolution (as in Big Bang) in school? I was taught it and learned about it but it didn't mean I believe it. The same can go with teaching religion. I have my own beliefs but I am not against learning what other ideas are about.

I feel if it is being taught and not rammed down students throats as truth then its good for people to have an understanding of what is out there.


Science is not about belief. It is about scientific proof! Or do you also "believe" that gravity does not exists? We have even less prof concerning gravity than we do about evolution.
If you say you do not believe in evolution theory then you are saying you do not believe in how we do science and medicine and how we are resistant to illnesses we would have died of just 200 years ago. A very large number of scientific theories are used today so we can make the following things work: airplanes, computers, microwave ovens, medicine, electricity and much much more.
Science can still "evolve" as we learn more about the world around us and THAT is what science is.
You can choose to not care about science. Not care how a car really works and you can live quite happy not knowing, but do not try to make this about something it is not!

The science behind creationism is well behind evolution theory and can barely be considered science with all the horrendous flawed studies made to pretend that it has proof behind it.

If you WANT to make religion into science then you better do it scientifically! You can even invent some type of new subject/course and preach it as it has been thus far but do not pretend it has any compare to the scientific backing of evolution theory.

Religion and science do not go hand in hand because science is about evidence and proof, while religion goes out of its way to ignore all evidence and prof that is not liked. THAT is NOT how science work. It is science when you prove and study the evidence.

You can argue you do not care or want to know how science work, but do not try to twist science into something it is not.

The flaw is trying to say this is science. It is not! Just like history is not math.


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 Post subject: Re: Religion
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 15:49 
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So the more and more that I think about the schools being allowed to teach creationism the more that I think this is more of a political tactic than an actual belief of the politicians that passed it. Just because something is "allowed" to be taught does not mean that it will be taught. Teachers have to make sure their students pass the state tests, if the students don't pass then it reflects directly onto their teachers. This is why many students in Kentucky will have two periods of science and no social studies one year, and the opposite the next year (Science is tested the year before social studies).

Now for the most parts teachers have a bit of freedom when it comes to what they teach. There is nothing set that says you much teach about Hammurabi's Code, but almost every teacher will teach about it in order to help students understand the time period more. Saying that, the teachers will have the freedom to teach creationism but I highly doubt there will be any questions on the state test, or Common Core Curriculum standards on which creationism will fit into. Teachers are already on a race with time to get everything shoved into the students' heads before the test so I don't think they are going to spend extra time on subject matter that doesn't help the students on their tests.

Here is Kentucky's Curriculum for Elementary, Middle School, and High School:
http://www.education.ky.gov/KDE/Instruc ... sment+4.1/

I just gazed through the High school curriculum and didn't really see anything on Evolution either, but it is still taught because it helps students understand SC-HS-3.5.2

Question: was it ever illegal to teach creationism in Indiana? Cause like I said teachers usually have limited freedom to teach what they want, as long as it covers the standards.

Now I know that some of you will say teachers will still try ramming creationism down students heads because religious people are crazy, and its your choice to believe that, but I think it is based on misconceptions, and you should take a step back and look at things more scientifically =P


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Religion and science do not go hand in hand because science is about evidence and proof, while religion goes out of its way to ignore all evidence and prof that is not liked. THAT is NOT how science work. It is science when you prove and study the evidence.


Nost: You make a lot of clear points but I find your biased a little ironic. I'm going to assume that one of the reasons you hate religion is because some religious people are ignorant and claim that their way is the only way, and here you are doing the same thing.

Sorry if this post is a little sloppy, doing a paper and writing a lesson plan while typing this out.

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 Post subject: Re: Religion
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 19:52 
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Cobra08 wrote:
Quote:
Religion and science do not go hand in hand because science is about evidence and proof, while religion goes out of its way to ignore all evidence and prof that is not liked. THAT is NOT how science work. It is science when you prove and study the evidence.


Nost: You make a lot of clear points but I find your biased a little ironic. I'm going to assume that one of the reasons you hate religion is because some religious people are ignorant and claim that their way is the only way, and here you are doing the same thing.



It is not religion I hate. I like how the moral stories teaches us about life, especially those that shows us how morals has changed through out the ages. I hate it when people try to make more out of it than there are without any backings at all and then go as far as to force it into places it does not fit. Religion has as much value as history as a tool of teaching us about how different actions causes different results. Something I can see being very useful in science. My whole point about creationism is not that it can not be science, but that it is not science yet - although, I doubt a scientific version of creationism would match the description we have of it today I still celebrate the thought that it is being discussed, but I personally has to refuse it when it is in the wrong areas or level as what is would need.
Religion is as relevant as politics(which is very relevant in our daily life) and you are right that this issue is ALL about politics, but we have to discuss and fight the politics that are hurtful or as other would say goes against our moral standings.

In reflection I see my own posting as more aggressive than what I would like, but that is how I argue and discuss issues I find important. With temperament nearing bloodthirstiness. :P


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 Post subject: Re: Religion
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 18:23 
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112 pages, my thread wins. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Religion
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 18:29 
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popcorn10 wrote:
homer, do you even play anymore!


Not for about 6 or 7 years, my job is ridiculously stressful.

My wife Michelle keeps me really busy too. Some right wing fools are messing with my stuff right now too.

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 Post subject: Re: Religion
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 22:42 
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I quit playing because homer left =/

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 Post subject: Re: Religion
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 18:20 
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Wow.. you know you're bored when you pick up n comment on a religion thread..

Anyway,

It's quite simple, teaching creationism privileges a single religious viewpoint. Most mainstream Christians even reject all of the doctrines held by creationists. Seemingly neutral policies such as "teach both sides" actually single out particular religious viewpoints and place them in opposition to mainstream science. The only person this hurts in the long term is the poor "duped" children, who not only have learnt something which is complete rubbish but also could impact the way they understand / accept GENUINE scientific theory for the rest of their life.

It's in my eyes an international issue. All children should learn only our best factually supported explanation in regards to creation which thus far is Evolution.

The only place for religion in schools is to examine how it impacts society and as people have mentioned in pervious posts to understand what each is & what defines them as a christian, muslim, Jew.. whatever.
If a child then decides themselves to make religion a part of their lives then they understand it well enough to take that decision & undertake whatever form of worship they choose in their own time.

Personally I would go as far remove even the option to teach any relgion in schools. They learn enough about fiction in English, the bible should be thrown in somewhere between Of Mice & Men and To Kill a mocking bird. lol..

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 Post subject: Re: Religion
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 00:22 
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MrCrosby wrote:
impact the way they understand / accept GENUINE scientific theory for the rest of their life.


I completely agree with that. In fact, I came across this just recently while teaching my 8th grade social studies. We watched current events and the news was talking about the big bang and different stuff of that sorts, and one of my kids just blurt out "That's not true." It's already hard enough to get kids to understand the difference between theory and hypothesis.

But like I said, I have not seen any schools that actually teach creationism.

Was just bored and wanted to try and spice life up a little by adding to the condo =)

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