Innate pop penalty

• Due to excessively long train times (much longer than adding up the train times for T1-T5. For more info, see my post in the other thread)
• Due to lowered pop after sacrificing units (this can be mitigated by running large amounts of tuning halls). I'm not sure how much this reduces the overall income. (stockpiling gold should make this problem worse)
• Due to using a building normal races wouldn't have to (tuning halls)

Tollspry should be a strong midround race, they will start to die out when they no longer gain much benefit from imps (7/7 would cost around 250 gpp).

It seems the dev team don't wish to change the trollspy. Could we get a final answer to this and if they aren't to be changed can we get a commitment not to nerf them mid round then.

Minotaur GPP is also absolutely awesome with the best imping capability in the game.

You could stop staring at the numbers and think how the race will play out in a real round.

Do you plan to use 0/4 dp all round long? How will you get to emitters if not? Tollspry is really vulnerable to precision pushes if you don't train specs constantly, which means you'll never end up to the econ your excel sheet is giving you. They also become increasingly most costy as the round progresses, unlike other races and more importantly, if you fall behind from the top, your calculated gpp with the "free" diamonds becomes obsolete, as other people have more land, which effectively means they're getting the "free" diamonds too and you're on even line... with averagely priced troops and way longer train times.

I'd say slightly OP'd, but hard to pull off. You can totally break the race with the perfect conditions, good luck with that.

_________________
www.ceekayed.com

I think you forgot the bigger point about innate pop penalty.
Tollspry are always making their 2-1 unit wich is VERY inefficient, and you have to do it, to start saccing, but this unit is so inefficient that works as a very high innate pop penalty. Most of the races can make at once a good unit 0-7 for exemple, while tollspry should make 9999 2-1 (slowing a lot their economy) to start to upgrade them.

The unit is only very inefficient if you USE the unit. I'm assuming the player would never use this unit (or log on a few hours late). By doing this, I can calculate the lost production as equal to the total training times (-12 hrs) multiplied by the average gold production of a citizen.

Yes i understnad that Fergy, but the race is both very unit efficient and land efficient to make up for it. You make a very good point with their end round play (they can't choose to stop imping), which is probably their greatest weakness together with their speed when i think more about it, and the train times is something I clearly would never have thought about.

Excellent points by ceek aswell, and is exactly the reason I am reluctant of playing them. The gap between the 1/4 and the 7/7 sure is a problem but can be solved by saccing your attackers to 7/7 and then saccing your 1/4 to a mix of 8/0 and 7/7 when you start sitting.

Inate pop penalty is a piss poor way of expressing it i think, as that would incline their land efficiency would be lesser then the norm while its exactly the opposite. Inate unit inefficiency would be more like it.

Sure the race is "forced to run" some 5% Halls depending on your activity(another point i really dislike about this race) but, you also gain ~80 diamonds per emitter trained.

TLDR: Tollsprys diamond production is affected by income improvements/pop imps which hardly gives them an inate pop penalty!

@Alex

Yeah but the 2/1 is just a horrendous unit, and should be avoided like the plague, just trained because you have to:)



I'm not saying nerf them, don't get the wrong idea. Im just stuck on the "pop penalty" part Aswell as me hating the idea of a race where activity is too bloody importent(sac by the hour to make sure population is stable)

Sorry for long post just ignore if you're sick of me babbling to no one in particular!

Yes, the required activity is quite horrid. Missing 24 hours could set you back more than one would think. Though, there are some players that love having something to do every hour. A downside to this game sometimes, is that it's best you do nothing for 12 hours. =P I am glad players have 12 races to choose from!

_________________
The Age of Despair :: Round 2 :: 1 El Norte
The Age of Wisdom :: Round 4 :: 1 SmoochyWoochyPoochy
The Age of Wisdom :: Round 6 :: 1 Goblin Rings
The Age of Achievements :: Round 1 :: 1 Hufflepuff's Cup

I know it should be avoided, ofc.. But it's impossible to avoid, since this unit is the TOP unit, you should start doing the 2-1 first, and its very inefficient, wich will slow your economy for some hours. I believe that was the pop penality.
Last round, tollsprys had a good economy, then they did LOTS of 2-1, so you slow your economy a lot by 12 hours, then it will get a little better until you have the efficient unit. Wich fergy told i think.

Dude that isnt a pop penalty - just ignore them (its just a step)
you have a 1.5/4 in 12 hours
same as most other races

just have to log on twice (0&9hrs)

just cos its there doesnt mean it needs used (crazy sui pushes aside)


its not as if its any real disadvantage at all - it is still a 12 hour training time for T2
you dont hold harmonizers - just try to ignore them

wierdly enough the timespans are perfect as it takes 12 to train spec dp's (1.5/4) T2
and 12 hours to train them into elites (7/7) T5


im just thinking of them as a fcuked up elementals *ignoring T1*

_________________
What has nobody else done? Lets do that but different :)

Oh, zxektok. *shakes head* As much as I want you to learn Tollspry on your own, I have to give you some strategic guidance.

#1 - Ignoring the 2/1 isn't the correct way to think about it. The problem is, you are training about twice as much military for 9 hours. This is what people are referring to when they mention inefficiency.

#2 - Elemental and Tollspry play very differently, and in-fact only share in common the T1 units. Elementals gain military as they upgrade, but economy is not effected. Tollspry lose military as they upgrade, but economy grows. Also, I assume Tollspry will push for offense or continuously train, while Elemental only push for defense.

_________________
The Age of Despair :: Round 2 :: 1 El Norte
The Age of Wisdom :: Round 4 :: 1 SmoochyWoochyPoochy
The Age of Wisdom :: Round 6 :: 1 Goblin Rings
The Age of Achievements :: Round 1 :: 1 Hufflepuff's Cup

its 9 hours. instead of losing 3k an hour to train 4dp spec you lose 6k and hour
for 9 hours... not huge deal but see your point




yes to a certain extent

you upgrade ele's for the miltary efficiency so you dont have to train more specs
so your economy grows (higher op, decreased cas) - less specs

tollspry you lose miltary but economy grows and gains more military efficiency (higher op/dp,decreased cas)
but u need ur specs back but get free diamonds/mage/spy


just a different way of upgrading - but they all need upgrading none the less


you could run 3/3's but simply no
you could run 1.5/4's but no

upgrades please *ignores T1= expensive T2 because of econ drop*

the difference in my mind is still

_________________
What has nobody else done? Lets do that but different :)

zxektok, you have successfully blown my mind.

_________________
The Age of Despair :: Round 2 :: 1 El Norte
The Age of Wisdom :: Round 4 :: 1 SmoochyWoochyPoochy
The Age of Wisdom :: Round 6 :: 1 Goblin Rings
The Age of Achievements :: Round 1 :: 1 Hufflepuff's Cup

Quaffle was right.

#1 - Ignoring the 2/1 isn't the correct way to think about it. The problem is, you are training about twice as much military for 9 hours. This is what people are referring to when they mention inefficiency.

To make one 7-7, you should make about five 2-1 wich slow a lot your economy for 9 hours, then it get a little better for the next 3 hours and then it will slowly recover you economy for only one unit. Since tollspry are constanting making 5 units to make it be only 1 unit while other can simple make at once 1 unit. That's a pop penality i was saying, but ofc tollspry have a good gpp because of that etc, i'm not talking about balance here, just about people asking what is pop penalty. Maybe i'm wrong and missing some other thing about tollspry, who knows.

thanks quaffle: im a blowing master

minds included

_________________
What has nobody else done? Lets do that but different :)

O_O

What else is included? Do we need to fetch Ace?