B, but would anyone actually stay at 20 percent Guild Quarters the entire round as some Undead would with last round's version? And I don't imagine someone playing this race would send workers that frequently, given the replacement costs.

But I will add an extra 50 percent anyways to make you happy!

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Our pack's Royal Family Message every round now:

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Ok, I have restored the spec unit conversion into elite OP unit, but it's a percentage of "surviving" units, NOT casualties. Further, I have also introduced a reverse conversion where the surviving elite OP unit is demoted to the spec unit upon failed attacks or successful "normal" attacks against you.

And here's the extra paragraph in the race introduction that explains it:

The Ungol society is a military aristocracy, divided into the nobles who form the Cataphract heavy cavalrymen and the commoners who constitute the Keshik horse archers. This hierarchy, however, is not frozen as those of the soft, civilized human societies tend to be; the Ungols know by harsh necessity that the ultimate test of merit must be found on the battlefield. As a result, those who prove their worth in battle are frequently promoted to the nobility, whereas those who disgrace themselves are reduced to commoner status.

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Our pack's Royal Family Message every round now:

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The problem I see with this race is the same one I saw with Leshkin's original version - far too many bonuses (that are by no means offset by the penalties). There is no real core concept to the race, just a hodgepodge of what the race's creator wants in his ideal race. And while you do have to make races that are playable and appealing, you don't have to try and make races that all but morons would play.

9hr lumber-free, cheap r/r build + 9hr trained-from-peasant 4/3's + worker op. Sounds great to play? Hells yeah! But to play AGAINST? A nightmare. DD's have a 9hr build, but they need lumber. How would you be able to monitor this race for a potential spec-tav? Can't check lumber stack. Can't *really* use peasant count. They pretty much have a constant massive threat OP potential (compounded by their enormous turtle).

Now there is the -10% pop bonus, but this is conveniently offset by the incredible efficiency of the race. They have fantastic turtle. They are primarily gold-based, and the minimal secondary resources needed are all of the non-decaying variety. Even the -10% food production is offset by the TM unit acting as a tower (via fertility).

Furthermore, they offer conversions on attacking for both primary OP units (specs and leets) and a 10hr return! And you might think that the -10% land gains is a penalty, but for a converting race this is not really the case since non-stop BFing works in your favor anyway and lower land gains allows that to happen much easier.

So my advice to you would be to come up with your core concept for the race - what is it that you want? what unique/interesting aspect do you want to incorporate in the game that you think is missing from the current races? Figure that out, and then strip this race down and keep only that. But more importantly consider both sides of the coin - playing the race AND playing against it. Pretend even that everyone in the game is gonna get the choice to play your race BUT you - what changes would you make? I think that can help ppl to make races that are more balanced, rather than just races they want to play.

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WARNING: Quaffles is a whiny bitch, and he will complain to adminz if you say anything negative about him in your signature.

Knicoal,

You are so awesome when it comes to constructive criticism!; thanks much!

Now to the specifics:



An eminently fair criticism as far as too many bonuses. I will try to balance the bonuses and penalties some more--and they have been further balanced compared to the original draft I sent you that you due to Dante and B's withering criticism! For instance, specs no longer train from peasants.

But I do think there is a core concept--it is of a race of nomadic horsemen with exceptional combat prowess and speed, offset by exceptionally harsh environment. But I guess the environmental penalties ought to be stressed more.



I've already mentioned that specs no longer train from peasants. The reason there are so many construction bonuses is because the race is nomadic, and so they simply have huts that they pick up and go. But I see your point about the Tavern push. So I will think about re-introducing lumber as a building requirement.



Would -20 percent population and food malus (which is what the Frostzorbs have) balance it more? The Frostzorbs would then have better efficiency: OP elite-wise 8/5 v 10/3, and DP elite-wise 4/7 v. 3/7.



I think you mis-read how the OP elite conversions works: It's actually a "demotion," not "promotion" Also, I would imagine even the "promotion" of the spec unit would be less powerful than the normal variety, because it is based on surviving unit rather than casualties.



Sage advice indeed!

_________________
Our pack's Royal Family Message every round now:

"Please don't hit active guys with huge OP--even if they leave land DP!!!"

Sorry, I guess I missed the change from peasant to workers on the 4/3's. Also, it should be noted: I do not read race descriptions. I am not really into the RPGish aspect of the game.

However, that was not really what I meant by "core concept" - since I was referring to the actual functionality of the race rather than the more abstract concept. So when you say that they have to get the construction bonuses because they are nomads, my thoughts are to change the nomad bit. Again, I went thru this with quaffles on Leshkins also - but you can't simply justify bonuses because of a storyline even at the expense of balancing them.



Yes, but the fact is - they still don't DIE. And a demotion to a 4/3 is not that bad anyways! Plus, they can get re-promoted again on the next wave of attacks.


As for increasing the pop/food penalties... it's hard to say - no impossible to say how to balance this race without some hardcore number crunching. And the busier a race is (ie. the more bonuses and penalities) the more difficult an accurate number-crunch is even gonna be really. I certainly don't think I am up to the task anyways. Maybe you can pester wilan or someone into doing a more thorough job.

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Disable Guild Quarters or have the worker op removed, preferably the latter.

GQ push -> FT push -> kick ass with 100gpp units that produce 3.5gph, with 7h returns (possibly 4h with the spell and one hc) and 9.375% casualties on normal attacks.

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^, good luck dominating people with 20% GQ, 20% FT. Let's see how many workers you can make with -20% population on 408 land. 6528 population on 408 land. Ha 3k worker op max.

Underpowered,

Races like FW has */8 for 1425 and DD has 8/* for almost the same price. Worker price is too expensive with little perks (a bit expensive to send on attacks).

Rune unit is pretty good. But looks like people will be getting like 25-40 of these in a round. The effect isn't game breaking so it's a good unit.

The demoting and promoting is messing with my head but I think you're supposed to get the specs or else you'll be suffering 11+ percent casualties per hit. However this does mean that over the course of the game you'll have more specs than elites at any point (don't know the margin) so -20% population for an average of 5-6 point attackers?

The race is too complicated. Scratch the pop bonus and balance the numbers.

Alas, alas: You are too much of a functionalist for a literary type! But now I understand your point better though.

Ok, I will remove the 9-hour construction time then.



I think we are still not on the same page on the conversions. The spec unit is "promoted" from among the surviving units, not casualties. So units still die. The same goes for the "demoted" elite OP unit.

So the conversion is actually not that great. In fact, the "demotion" elite might make this race a suicide magnet! Depending on how people play against this race, that could be a huge demerit, I think



Ok, I compared to Frostzorbs, and the OP elite is cheaper with less OP efficiency (but greater turtle DP), whereas the DP elite is more expensive with 1 more OP. So it's roughly comparable, if I introduce the 20 percent population and food malus (but I am inclined to go with 15 percent).

I wish Wilan would look at the race, but the fact that he hasn't commented yet inclines me to think he doesn't even think it's worth even considering!

Edit: Speaking of the Devil, he just did!

_________________
Our pack's Royal Family Message every round now:

"Please don't hit active guys with huge OP--even if they leave land DP!!!"

I'm afraid I'm not good with actually balancing races, but I will leave some thoughts.

First, I don't think you should prohibit exploring all together. It is a part of the game and I think every race should be able to do it, just like every race can cast spells. However, I have no objection to a race of lousy explorers.

Second, please cut your race description in half. Race descriptions should be roughly a paragraph. Otherwise, no one will ever read it.

Third, the demotion idea is inventive, but with promotions and demotions, it balances out. If you had just one, it would feel more like a racial feature.

Fourth, for supposedly being a simple race, it really isn't...maybe you should focus on just a few things. You could create another race with some of the other features.

Fifth, what are your thoughts on your "super unit," the Taoist Master? I know you just kinda threw that in to get 7 units.

Hmmm, I guess I really didn't make the conversions clear, but I thought it was plainly written.

First, as I told Knicoal: It's only from "surviving" units that you get conversions, not casualties. So units die. Second, the "demotion" occurs when you fail an attack or get hit. So it's unlikely you will end up with more specs than elites, unless you are a spec pusher.

_________________
Our pack's Royal Family Message every round now:

"Please don't hit active guys with huge OP--even if they leave land DP!!!"

Wilan already mentioned this, but would people gain so much out of a GQ push when there is a -20 population malus? Also, the worker unit is prohibitively expensive (the price of a normal worker even with a GQ push) and has too high a casualty rate to be used as a mainstay. I think.

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Our pack's Royal Family Message every round now:

"Please don't hit active guys with huge OP--even if they leave land DP!!!"

I don't mind this change, but I simply don't know how exploring penalties are worded or formulated, as I've never seen it on a race



I thought so as well, but Dante thought the race is too complicated for one paragraph; and Quaffle's race also has three paragraphs--though perhaps he's not the best model to follow



I don't think it balances out, because most good players (unless they are XP players) will make a lot more successful attacks than bounce attacks or get hit



As I responded to Knicoal, I like what she calls the "RPG" aspect of the game, and the Taoist masters are supposed to be basically demigods in Oriental lore. So they ought to be awesomely powerful.

In this context, it didn't make sense to give them typical mage stats. I was looking through old race proposals, and someone had Titans (basically gods) at something like 9 OP. That made zero conceptual sense, and I was trying to avoid that.

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Our pack's Royal Family Message every round now:

"Please don't hit active guys with huge OP--even if they leave land DP!!!"

If you build an elite, you suffer the 90% casualties which leaves 93.25% of you military remaining. Of that 5% gets "demoted" leaving a total of 89% military. Well since specs are half as strong the total military will be ~91.1% That's still 120% casualties on your first attack which isn't very pleasant. Well it's not as bad as I initially thought.

Tired don't have much more to say, I still think you should kill the pop penalty and balance.

Who said you'd have to be doing 20% GQs AND 20% FTs? And on 408 land? What are you on Wilan? Geesh. Try at 1,5k land with good imps, r/r'ing those 20% GQs to FTs. All of your troops will have 7h returns, or 5h with the spell, along with the worker op. You have -50% build and r/r cost with no lumber requirement, there is no reason not to do it.

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Ok, should I just go with a normal casualty conversion for familiarity's sake, instead of "surviving" unit conversion?

Or sub in different numbers--maybe a 3 percent demotion?

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Our pack's Royal Family Message every round now:

"Please don't hit active guys with huge OP--even if they leave land DP!!!"