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MisterBarca
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 18:30 |
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Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 23:09 Posts: 1288
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Preliminary Comments: Be gentle, as this is my first go at race creation (and partly because it's a first sally, the race is relatively simple). I obviously based the race on the Mongols and other “Oriental” steppe peoples, and the name itself is taken from a Warhammer sub-race of the same inspiration. Play style-wise, I sought to create a 10-hour return, high “turtle,” relatively efficient “evil” race, which I felt was lacking at the moment (in contrast to their relative abundance in the “good” side, including Humans, Shinobis, and recently Gryphons). And obviously, the race is designed to encourage attacking; in fact, you outright cannot explore. There are two things that I believe to be are innovations in the race. First, the unit re-training or conversion scheme involves "surviving" units, not casualties; further, there is also a "reverse" re-training where units can be demoted as well as promoted. Second, I have introduced a racial spell that enables troops to return faster but with the cost of reduced land gain. I believe it fits the race's motif or theme of speed and lack of manpower--which hinders the race from enjoying the full fruits of victory (which is also why they must hire non-indigenous, "mercenary" DP elite units as well!). A final note: I have created the race not just with game balance in mind, but also with contextual fidelity in mind. That is, in spite of the fact that it is a fantasy context, I try to make the parts make some sense in the contextual whole. That’s why, for instance, Mercenary Crossbowmen are so expensive compared to the rest of the unit line-up. They are not indigenous. So here it is: I am sure I have failed, but we improve only by trying. Race: Ungols Alignment: Evil Main Overview:In the vast, inhospitable steppes separating the two main human civilizations, the feudalistic knight kingdoms of the West and the bureaucratic empire of the East, dwells a race of rapacious, nomadic horsemen scarcely recognizable as human. These robust, brutal horsemen have acquired combat skills seemingly beyond human limits, as their entire lives are organized around war and raiding to compensate for the harshness and penury of their native land. Fortunately for the civilized humans, these raids, however regular and frequent, only inflict limited losses. The disunited Ungols simply lack the numbers to overcome civilized garrisons in protracted warfare, in spite their vastly superior individual combat prowess. Yet, periodically catastrophes are loosed upon the world and human civilization itself faces the prospect of extinction when a Khan of Khans emerges to unite these beast-men.
The Ungol society is a military aristocracy, divided into the nobles who form the Cataphract heavy cavalrymen and the commoners who constitute the Keshik horse archers. This hierarchy, however, is not frozen as those of the soft, civilized human societies tend to be; the Ungols know by harsh necessity that the ultimate test of merit must be found on the battlefield. As a result, those who prove their worth in battle are frequently promoted to the nobility, whereas those who disgrace themselves are reduced to commoner status. The Ungols have also in the past hired expensive Mercenary Crossbowmen when they lacked manpower to defend strategic gains.
Due to their nomadic nature, the Ungols can quickly build Homes in any type of terrain, and they receive numerous bonuses when re-zoning, building, or razing structures. They cannot build Slave Pits, because they take no prisoners and cannot afford a laboring class that does not fight. Bonuses and Penalties:-No lumber is needed to construct buildings -50% worker rezone-, build- and raze cost -15% Population -15% Food production -Cannot explore Military:Code: Name OP DP Ret Train CAS MAG SPY COST Keshik 4 3 9 9 100 - - 475g Mercenary Crossbowman 4 7 12 12 110 - - 1300g Cataphract 8 5 10 12 90 - - 1100g, 200r Courtesan - - - - - - 1 850g Buddhist Monk - 3 - 9 50 1 - 1250g Taoist Master 25 25 10 12 10 - - 1000g, 2ru Nomad 0.5 - 10 - 250 - - 110g -Every Taoist Master acts like a Tower. Taoist Masters are also immortal. -6% of surviving Keshiks on successful "normal" attacks you make are automatically re-trained and "promoted" to Cataphract. -3% of surviving Cataphracts on successful "normal" attacks against you are automatically re-trained and "demoted" to Keshik. (Note that this demotion also applies only to those Cataphracts who were home defending.) -Each Mercenary Crossbowman casualty returns 20 percent of its training cost (260g). Spells:-Sneak Attack (Self, One Time): All troops return 1 hour earlier, in exchange for 5% reduction in land gain. -Feast on Horse Flesh (Self, One Time): Each Keshik and Cataphract casualty is converted into 5 food. -Cannot use the Sneak Attack spell with "Raid" or "Conquest" attack. Building Differences:-Home: Ungols can build Home on every type of land. -Slave Pit: Ungols cannot build Slave pit. Change Log
There have been many changes, but the most important has been stream-lining and clarifying the re-training process that involves both the "promotion" of the spec unit and the "demotion" of the OP elite unit. Two things. First, the re-training involves "surviving" units, not casualties. Second, your spec unit gets promoted only if you make a successful attack; and your DP elite unit gets demoted only if you get hit.
_________________ Our pack's Royal Family Message every round now:
"Please don't hit active guys with huge OP--even if they leave land DP!!!"
Last edited by MisterBarca on Thu May 27, 2010 00:56, edited 47 times in total.
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Dante
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 19:04 |
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Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 17:13 Posts: 1564
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A bit gryphonlike isnt it.  You need one more unit. Unless i'm stupid. And i'm not sure if i understand the "yields 10% of its training cost"?.. Also i think you should make it even clearer in the background text why they have their bonuses. It makes sense since i assume they have tents etc etc, but why not make it more explicit? All in all i think it's a pretty cool race anyway. 
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MisterBarca
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 19:14 |
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Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 23:09 Posts: 1288
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Dante wrote: A bit gryphonlike isnt it.  You need one more unit. Unless i'm stupid. And i'm not sure if i understand the "yields 10% of its training cost"?.. Also i think you should make it even clearer in the background text why they have their bonuses. It makes sense since i assume they have tents etc etc, but why not make it more explicit? All in all i think it's a pretty cool race anyway.  Dante, yes, there is much derived from the Gryphons, except that you wouldn't have the insane economy--which is probably why some folks felt the race was broken! I don't think I need more units. The race only has 1 specialist unit--just like the Gryphons, and also has a unit doubling as both mage and spy. As for their various construction/building bonuses, they derive from their nomad state--as you guessed. Their buildings are not elaborate, so they can simply pick up and move any "buildings." Finally, regarding Mercenary Crossbowmen, basically when each unit dies, you recover 10 percent of the hiring fee (i.e., training cost) back. This is because they are mercenaries, and the hiring fee wouldn't be paid all up-front. So once one of these units dies, then no need to pay them any further  Of course, realistically you should be able to recover more of the hiring fee than a mere 10 percent, but that would be too un-balanced. (Or maybe I should increase the cost a lot more and than be able to recover a lot more?)
_________________ Our pack's Royal Family Message every round now:
"Please don't hit active guys with huge OP--even if they leave land DP!!!"
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Dante
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 19:23 |
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Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 17:13 Posts: 1564
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Well, my point is you HAVE to use 7 units. I'm sure it says in the race creation guide. It's not an option to have less. Unless i am stupid ofc.  And my point about tents is that i think you should include it in the main overview. Something like "Being a nomadic people housed in tents the Ungool can construct and destroy their buildings faster and cheaper than many other races".. You can phrase it a lot better, but you get my point..  Mercenary thing sounds good. Dunno if it is phrased the same way as other return-on-casualty functions though, if not then maybe look at others and see if you can phrase it the same for easier understanding. 
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MisterBarca
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 19:27 |
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Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 23:09 Posts: 1288
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Dante wrote: Well, my point is you HAVE to use 7 units. I'm sure it says in the race creation guide. It's not an option to have less. Unless i am stupid ofc.  And my point about tents is that i think you should include it in the main overview. Something like "Being a nomadic people housed in tents the Ungool can construct and destroy their buildings faster and cheaper than many other races".. You can phrase it a lot better, but you get my point..  Mercenary thing sounds good. Dunno if it is phrased the same way as other return-on-casualty functions though, if not then maybe look at others and see if you can phrase it the same for easier understanding.  Oops. I didn't realize about the minimum race requirement. I will work on that and re-phrasing the background and mercenary hiring cost recovery mechanism after lunch 
_________________ Our pack's Royal Family Message every round now:
"Please don't hit active guys with huge OP--even if they leave land DP!!!"
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jzmoney
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 19:29 |
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Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 19:51 Posts: 199 Location: United States
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Code: Name OP DP Ret Train CAS MAG SPY COST Keshik 4 3 10 9 100 - - 500g Mercenary Crossbowmen 4 7 13 12 110 - - 1400g Cataphract 8 5 10 12 90 - - 1200g, 200r Taoist Master - 4 - 12 50 1 1 3000g, 25dm Nomad 0.5 - 10 - 200 - - 150g Fix'd Use Notepad and use all spaces--no tabs! And yes, you MUST have 7 units, one which is a worker.
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quaffle
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 19:52 |
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Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 20:20 Posts: 6868 Location: Chi-Town
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MisterBarca wrote: I sought to create a 10-hour return, high “turtle,” relatively efficient “evil” race, which I felt was lacking at the moment Leshkin has 10 hour return, high turtle, and is efficient. -Sneak Attack (Self): All troops return 1 hours earlier, in exchange for 10% reduction in land gain. <-- this is a cool spell. Rape & Pillage is a useless spell. Other than that, I dont see anything unique. Sorry. It doesnt even have 7 units?!
_________________ The Age of Despair :: Round 2 :: 1 El Norte The Age of Wisdom :: Round 4 :: 1 SmoochyWoochyPoochy The Age of Wisdom :: Round 6 :: 1 Goblin Rings The Age of Achievements :: Round 1 :: 1 Hufflepuff's Cup
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MisterBarca
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 20:01 |
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Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 23:09 Posts: 1288
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jzmoney wrote: Code: Name OP DP Ret Train CAS MAG SPY COST Keshik 4 3 10 9 100 - - 500g Mercenary Crossbowmen 4 7 13 12 110 - - 1400g Cataphract 8 5 10 12 90 - - 1200g, 200r Taoist Master - 4 - 12 50 1 1 3000g, 25dm Nomad 0.5 - 10 - 200 - - 150g Fix'd Use Notepad and use all spaces--no tabs! And yes, you MUST have 7 units, one which is a worker. Thanks for the correction! quaffle wrote: MisterBarca wrote: I sought to create a 10-hour return, high “turtle,” relatively efficient “evil” race, which I felt was lacking at the moment Leshkin has 10 hour return, high turtle, and is efficient. -Sneak Attack (Self): All troops return 1 hours earlier, in exchange for 10% reduction in land gain. <-- this is a cool spell. Rape & Pillage is a useless spell. Other than that, I dont see anything unique. Sorry. It doesnt even have 7 units?! Oops. I did indeed overlook the Leshkins. My apologies. Why do you think Rape & Pillage is useless? Perhaps I shall think of something else than. I know it's not too "unique," but it's a first effort, and I think originality is over-rated anyways in general. And I am addressing the 7-unit oversight as we speak.
_________________ Our pack's Royal Family Message every round now:
"Please don't hit active guys with huge OP--even if they leave land DP!!!"
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B
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 21:29 |
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Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:28 Posts: 2570 Location: The Netherlands
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bonuses (8): 9hrs build no lumber -50% rezone 4/3 spec training in 9 and from peasants giving converts (should count as a double bonus  ) homes on every landtype op on worker def on the mage (which should be more like 2x as expensive  ) penalties (4): -10% pop and food no explore expensive worker (cuz of having op)
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Dante
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 21:34 |
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Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 17:13 Posts: 1564
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I think the race has a bit too many different things to it, it feels messy.
I like the rezone/build/no-lumber buffs and the pop/farm/exploring penalties since they make sense in relation to the storyline. The sneak attack spell is very cool. Also i like your explanation for the mercenaries with the high cost and returns on casualties.
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The keshik, do they have to be trained from peasant? And why do they need conversions? Does the worker really need to have op? Also the new superunit trained from runes sounds cool, but it gets a bit messy with so many things as i mentioned so not sure about that either. I think you should try to streamline it a bit.
You could remove the above mentioned things and still have a 10hr return, efficient, high turtle evil race. Which also has the special additions of being nomads with all that brings with it in terms of bonuses and penalties. I think the race would be better if you simplify it.
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MisterBarca
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 21:43 |
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Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 23:09 Posts: 1288
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Dante wrote: I think the race has a bit too many different things to it, it feels messy.
I like the rezone/build/no-lumber buffs and the pop/farm/exploring penalties since they make sense in relation to the storyline. The sneak attack spell is very cool. Also i like your explanation for the mercenaries with the high cost and returns on casualties.
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The keshik, do they have to be trained from peasant? And why do they need conversions? Does the worker really need to have op? Also the new superunit trained from runes sounds cool, but it gets a bit messy with so many things as i mentioned so not sure about that either. I think you should try to streamline it a bit.
You could remove the above mentioned things and still have a 10hr return, efficient, high turtle evil race. Which also has the special additions of being nomads with all that brings with it in terms of bonuses and penalties. I think the race would be better if you simplify it. I think you are right on all accounts, except the Worker OP. I do think Workers need the OP to fit the theme of needing every individual to be able to fight due to the lack of manpower. I will fix. Edit: I initially had the spec unit converting to elite OP (but at very low rate), because I thought this race will have serious economy problems with the population penalty and prohibitively expensive workers. Should I still ditch the conversion? I already did provisionally, but...
_________________ Our pack's Royal Family Message every round now:
"Please don't hit active guys with huge OP--even if they leave land DP!!!"
Last edited by MisterBarca on Wed Apr 21, 2010 22:06, edited 1 time in total.
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MisterBarca
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 21:55 |
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Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 23:09 Posts: 1288
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B wrote: bonuses (8): 9hrs build no lumber -50% rezone 4/3 spec training in 9 and from peasants giving converts (should count as a double bonus  ) homes on every landtype op on worker def on the mage (which should be more like 2x as expensive  ) penalties (4): -10% pop and food no explore expensive worker (cuz of having op) I am not sure the mage having 3 DP is worth so much. The Orc spy has 2 DP, and it only costs 1100g! But I've increased it by 250g anyways. I've also gotten rid of the spec conversion and train from peasants.
_________________ Our pack's Royal Family Message every round now:
"Please don't hit active guys with huge OP--even if they leave land DP!!!"
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B
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 22:01 |
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Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:28 Posts: 2570 Location: The Netherlands
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The spec is huge: 4/3, 9hrs train, from peasant, conversions.. Its too much It has something from the Gryph and the Shin. This race is just a combo of all the good things in Elveron  MORE casualties on the workers EDIT: I noticed after posting that the spec was already changed
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MisterBarca
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 22:03 |
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Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 23:09 Posts: 1288
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B wrote: MORE casualties on the workers
Not sure. Balance-wise, you wouldn't send the workers as much as Gryphons, because they are more expensive and Ungols cannot come close to matching the Gryphon economy. Also, thematically, these guys have formed a completely militarized society. So even their workers can fight well--leading to lower casualties! 
_________________ Our pack's Royal Family Message every round now:
"Please don't hit active guys with huge OP--even if they leave land DP!!!"
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B
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 23:36 |
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Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:28 Posts: 2570 Location: The Netherlands
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I dunno man, with 20% GQ, you have workers that cost 100g for 1 op (100 gold/point), with 200% casualties, that produces 3.5 g/hr
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