Bear with me a little, as I thought Gryph's high casualties were due to their 10hr return time, but then I looked at Zons & Vamps and they have the same 10hr return time but have 100 & 65 casualties respectively for Vamp Lord and Huntress.

Going further to compare them we look at what is needed for each race to produce an elite unit. ITs require 150 iron, Huntress 25 lumber and Zamp Lord only gold. For 1 casualty of each race it costs the gold plus 1.5 dedicated Iron Mines for ITs, 0.25 Sawmills for Huntress and gold for VLs.

Looking at a normal attack, based on 100 units sent, we get 9 IT casualties, 7.5 Huntress & 5.6 VLs. If we go to Conquest at 3x normal casualties, we get 27 ITs, 22.5 Huntress & 16.8 VLs.

To replace on a normal attack per hundred sent, requires 13.5 Iron Mines dedicated, ~2 SawMills for Zons and just gold for vamps.

Looking further to Conquest attack per 100 sent, requires 40.5 Iron Mines dedicated, 5.6 SawMills for Zons & Gold for Vamps.

Now seriously, does requiring that dedication to one building type to replace for each attack balance the races? MGs, yes MGs are the reason! 15-30% MGs doesn't even come close to increasing the Iron Mine production to the level of this indifference between elites. Oh there is Aerial Evasion as well! But then the casualties are the same with Zons however they take 2 hrs longer to return.

Suggestion therefore would be to nerf either casualties down to 110 or 100 and/or lowering the iron requirement. Even to 120 iron would be good, if want to balance it with MGs at 20%

Either or the requirement of such a high number of one building type to produce one elite is stiff, and it is not reflected in the other races.

Maybe on par would be Phoenixs requiring that same 1.5 buildings per unit, but they are not lost given the "reborn" factor.

Well spoke my piece.....

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Once I thought I was wrong, but then I realized I was mistaken.

You do way to much thinking, for it to be healthy. :P

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"LUF says
mini-freud says : you have repressed aggresivity"

"LUF says
Mini-freud asks you about your mom. Critical attack! You take 999 damage. You die. Mini-freud wins 4 exp. points. Mini-freud found a wallet."

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WARNING: Quaffles is a whiny bitch, and he will complain to adminz if you say anything negative about him in your signature.

Comparing units if you take them out of their context will always yield 'surprising' numbers. Vampire Lords can only hit effectively during night, Gryphons rely on their MGs for a long time, etc.

This is what makes balancing hard, you can't just pull the units from each races and compare and balance them all to the same gold per unit cost. Yes you can increase their price when stripping FrostZorbs (as example) from their -pop%, but it will give out numbers with little meaning.

Gryphons are still strong and don't need boosting.

gryphs are one of the strongest races right now because of their god like economy... If only they wernt so dam boring to play!

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Foe: Borealelf

Why the hell isn't this on the race suggestion board. It is a suggestion about moddifiying a race in the game. It should be there. I know the board is dead and all, but seriously this thread should have been there.

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http://www.imaginarydaughter.com = Funny weird webcomic that I recently found and that I think you should check out as well. Personally I can't wait to see where it goes next.

PS. Thanks to LUF for making me this imaginary daughter avatar.

Stupid me, why didn't I think about how unfair it is for those running 30%+ FTs & 30%+ Acadamies and how their economies must suffer for they must sacrifice so greatly to reduce further their already super low casualty rates, where they don't need a "great" economy to keep up with normal loses on an attack, where they don't have to perform the sadly nerdy calculation comparisons to see if land gains through bottomfeeding is less costly than exploring, knowing full well it will take 3 attacks to counteract the effects of one invasion by a "poor economied" race. Boring? yes it is when it takes 2 days of building replacement elites to counter the losses of troops in one conquest, let alone increasing defenses to hold it and building the needed extra elites for the next attack. Yes so short sighted and completely self-centered to not have considered how keeping the 8 heroes alive destroys one's economy and must be catered to by giving cheap warriors that don't die as well. Yes i compared apples to bolts, and instead of realizing I should not have bitten the bolt, breaking my teeth, complain it is not as sweet as the apple. How could I have possibly fell into the trap of comparing one "elite" to another "elite" or one "spec" to another "spec" and somehow take them out of context for their own specific racial economic limitations when they are in the same "@$%*ing" category?! So I guess this idiot will return to "studying" every detail of why this tree has died, compare wrongly to the tree next to it, and be too stupid to realize that why the tree is dead is because the whole forest is dead from the fire that is blazing around it.

~borealelf cracks open a book of philosophy so he may better understand a game based 95+ on numbers, that should help things~

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Once I thought I was wrong, but then I realized I was mistaken.

If you are playing with Acads then you are an xp player. If that's the case, then of course your econ is going to stink no mater what race you are playing. If you play with Merchant Guilds as a land player, then your econ should be good.

If you are playing xp, then you shouldn't conquest. Even if you are playing for land you shouldn't use Conquest that often because even then they don't have the econ to replace the casualties if you do it regularly.

You've heard of the saying "can't see the forest for the trees" right? That's what you are doing when you study individual parts of a race in isolation from each other. That's like comparing two individual trees from two different forest and trying to make conclusions about the two forest based on those two individual trees. You just can't look at them that way.

Yes, most of the races have simular parts and sometimes direct comparisons of those parts can be helpfull, but there are other times where other considerations must be taken. For example, not every race has a lesser defender and a lesser attacker. Some have a lesser duel purpose unit. Vampires don't even have a lesser defender. Gryphons and Elementals have a lesser duel purpose units. There is nothing wrong with that, but having such differences will impact other things about the race.

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http://www.imaginarydaughter.com = Funny weird webcomic that I recently found and that I think you should check out as well. Personally I can't wait to see where it goes next.

PS. Thanks to LUF for making me this imaginary daughter avatar.

I don't mean this harsh Borealelf, but if you know the game so damn right, please win this round.

You are questioning EVERYTHING. There are enough forums for you to read in the archive, with stating enough things.

And don't mind us being a bit cracky on you - well I am not an elite player, not at all actually. I DO know some factors of the game though - and I search before I ask. It's just something you should try.

Plus - copycatting everyone isn't the most fun to play tbh. Have you figured things out on your own, without posting on GC, which is really good?

Bah sorry for this all - I am just wondering, and I have nothing against you personal. Just that you know.

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» J o b zegt:
you like pee?
Nicole zegt:
ya
smell AND taste
feels nice too tho
esp when it spashes in yer eyes and mouth

if you want to convince admins/players to change something, talk about iliths, planetouched or flamewalkers at least...

Yes, I do know the saying "forest through the trees" as I referenced it in a very sarcastic way in my post. Honestly, ok fuck, i'm a little whiner who has figured out absolutely nothing on my own in this game. Yeah being that it has nothing to do with logic and math and is purely a philosophical mind adventure, comparing one unit to another across several subcategories is the most absurd and frankly stupid thing one can do to get better in the game. I should have just been operating under the the understanding "that it is, just because it is" and nothing has room for suggestions or improvement. Let me send out apologies to everyone that I must have offended for asking a question that I came to by not being able to find the answers in the GC. Let me look at all the OOP strategies in the council, which happen to be there for all races except gryphons. Let me wonder why gryphons have only 3 viable military units while all other races have 4. Yes there are so many answers in the GC or the guide to explain "how the hell spa actually works," or how imps are actually based on negative exponential functions, so no one who is new doesn't waste their entire economy attempting to reach an unreachable goal. What more stupid questions can I ask?

Not to worry as I've already deleted out half of the stupid questions I've posted about, having not found the answers in the GC or the guide. I'll be sure to finish the job by deleting all the others out, so someone else new that wonders these same things will not be able to find any answers either and will either not ask or ask all the same questions. Fuck, it's a philosophy game anyways, One only needs to read Neitze or Voltaire to figure out how to excel at it, screw any questions about logic or math.

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Once I thought I was wrong, but then I realized I was mistaken.

This post just made you sound like a two year old having a hissy fit, We answered almost every question you asked but even we don't know the answers to all the weird stuff you have been posting, and hell some of you questions are so simple all you would have had to do is try it out between rounds and you would have figured it out . And you going and deleting all of your posts just so some new guy can't find them is just stupid and childish.

_________________
"LUF says
mini-freud says : you have repressed aggresivity"

"LUF says
Mini-freud asks you about your mom. Critical attack! You take 999 damage. You die. Mini-freud wins 4 exp. points. Mini-freud found a wallet."

Dood.
Thing is: math/logic are great - but there is something to be said for practical experience as well. And so far - the vast majority of your comment/suggestions/"bugs" have been incorrect based on your lack of any practical ingame experience (not to mention the fact that some things have to be pointed out/explained to you REPEATEDLY and still you never seem to learn). I mean even if you memorized the entire guide, you have almost NO experience in seeing how these races and/or intricacies play out ingame - something that is crucial to know before trying to re-balance everything. And the fact that I still doubt whether you fully grasp the concept of "turtle" probably means that you should not be race balancing. Maybe you should be focusing on how ppl use turtle (as in, actually in the game and not theoretically on paper) before you suggest to boost or nerf it, eh?

Balancing the game is hard - and there are only a SELECT FEW that are actually qualified to do it (and no, I don't claim to be one of them). Maybe you will be one of these people EVENTUALLY. But ffs, just play a full round at least - maybe a few rounds even 0.o Maybe yoou should have more than one race (in a full round) under your belt even. Hell, the varying round lengths make one race not even comparable to ITSELF sometimes in this game. Gryphs in a 4 week round are quite different than the same gryphs in a 6 week round. And again, you would know this if you just played a few friggin rounds first before going off half-cocked and suggesting a million things.

No one wants you to leave. Just calm down a bit ffs.

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WARNING: Quaffles is a whiny bitch, and he will complain to adminz if you say anything negative about him in your signature.

Im srry to see this flaming. Even if they all got a point, there is nicer ways to tell you, you are wrong.

You look at gryphon all the wrong way, and the attacker is the last part about them together with merchant guilds, that you need to boost.

One of the most importent part about elveron is casulties and cheap troop together with troop efficiency and land efficiency. You can't work everything out on your calculator, you'll have to play a few rounds to figure out the mechanics.

That being said. how to play gryphon the best way? don't get stuck on the 10h return time, it isn't that great except for early round, when troop casulties isn't that bad anyway. With slow spell you can attack twice on the same land size anyways.
So everytime you attack, keep slow spell and aerial evasion on.

Now if you wanna do your compare, which like said before doesn't mean very much couse there is so meny factors playing there role.

8/4 attacker with 100% cas and 12h return for 1350g and 150re. the only troop you can really compare it with if you're playing in the top is the alchemist of a goblin, since you'll probebly be hitting between 75-90% in the biggest part of the round.

So basicly like most other races, thier strenght is thier offense and weakness is thier unefficient defense which is made up for by land efficiency. Also thier merchant guilds makes them able to push the most offense of any races probebly per hour. and thier expenive worker is made up for with the decreased rezone cost.

To play a gryphon to thier full potential, you need to use thier amazing early income with merchant guilds to grab control of the round, using thier efficent and very cheap offense compared with your income to push eveyone else to train more def which in general is more expensive/ point in this game. Pretty much how we saw YF and co do last round and a realm seems to be doing this round aswell. A gryphon stuck bottomfeeding, needing to train to much defense to protect himself from top op, is a dead gryphon.

Also, do not ever, under any circumstances, conquest. the only reason to do it is for to take down competiotion, bringing yourself down in the fall aswell. Its good in the last few waves of the round though.

Hope it makes any sense to ya. and that it helps you improve your play.

Well, the way I see it there are 3 options; Be in the top 3-5 land as no one will attack you so grow on an exponential curve and attacking larger kingdoms penalizes the attacker in lower land gains; Build all defense and explore land, it is still cheaper than attacking given the casualties; or 3rd, exactly what you said.

without revealing specifics, as attacks:invasions are at almost 4:1, dedicated d to sendable offense is 2.5:1 and economy is 80:1 g to land and all this results in an net average of 18 acre/attack. At cost of casualties and lost buildings, exploring more than out weighs the cost of attacking. Making gryphons as homer said "an amazingly boring race."

As for understanding turtle, yeah I understand it now. I don't use it, achieve my base defense with RHs and only enough ITs for attacking, as LFs destroy economy in numbers. If I could have never built another after OOP, I wouldn't. but seeing that the offense growth rate of the top kingdoms outpaces the defense growth of smaller kingdoms, it will be become increasingly necessary to build them, which further erodes economy.

This round will result in the same as last. I'll be the land broker between the largest 5% of the kingdoms who will take it from me and the middle 50% from whom I will take it. Sadly, it isn't a paying position.

All the take about balancing the races isn't what is really needed, it's more a balancing between smaller and larger. Shit, shouldn't even mention again as know where it will go, but attacking larger kingdoms gives smaller gains than attacking smaller kingdoms. Maybe this is put in effect to minimize suicides, but wouldn't that be better addressed by simply upping the % of defense to offense needed to remain home or per hour when attacking larger kingdoms.

alright, points well made Striker. I guess I shouldn't complain too much given only top 20 players have managed to hit me. I'll jump for joy thinking about how exciting the remainder of the round will be hitting 2-3x to recoup for being hit once. If I just set my newly acquired land on my doorstep, you all think you can just take it without invading my house?

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Once I thought I was wrong, but then I realized I was mistaken.