I think this is a very good idea. Gain x land, gain y land, gain z land. Build "ANY MINE or for elf HOME"; build courthouse; etc. Train 10 spies; train 100 spies, reach 0.25 spa. Et etc.



I think you're being way too negative Silencio.

I disagree on many of your points too.

I think unlocking buildings/improvements is good as long as it can be made without problem for everyone. Lets just make sure we have a few very basic achievements that everyone will reach that gets you the basic unlocks. It will help new players a lot.

1000 gold bonuses are pointless. I like having rewards for the achievements. And remember you can get stuff like +5% gold; +10% dust etc from ruler hero items which i havent seen you complain about. I would suggest reducing all the suggested bonuses zip came up with BY HALF, so that they are comparable to ruler hero items. That way they will be nice bonuses that you will want, but not gamebreaking.

An issue with this that might need some consideration is ofc that it gives an extra buff to runaways that might not be needed. I like the concept of having people try to reach 2k acres /200k nw or whatever to gain a buff, but it is an issue to consider for runaways anyway.

I also really like quaffles thinking of viewing the bonuses as a bunch of things you choose from, where leshkin obviously wouldnt take the lower worker price, elemental would take +dust etc etc. That way we just need to add a few more bonuses so there are some really good for each race, and some not so good for each race.

I agree on the GMs, so my suggestion was to make it GM/DM - and then we'd need race specific ones too so elf gets to make 100 homes etc.

On the defensive units i think very few dont built 1k defensive elites during a round. Tbh i cant recall a single strategy that ends up without that. Can you give me an example? I dont really see an issue with this achievement. It will just mean those who goes defspecs early on will meet this requirement a bit later.

Same goes for spies. Who doesnt train at least .25spa?! Some races/strats do it earlier than others, but i'd say it is pretty rare to have someone never reaching it. Maybe it could be lowered a little if you really think there are viable strats that would be hurt by training 100 spies more or whatever.

Exploring/attacking has already been adressed by both me and Knicoal. They should ofc be either or. Or maybe just make it into "gain 200 acres".

Who on earth doesnt rezone 100 acres? Even orcs that can build homes everywhere will rezone 100 acres at some point. The only possibility i can see for not rezoning 100 acres is if you are a noob and building a rainbow build, but we dont want to encourage that.

There is no race currently in the game that benefits from unbuilt acres, and even an XP player will build all acres in protection. So although i understand your objection to it, it really isnt a problem atm and i think that achievement works. There is NO good strategy that involves not building all acres in protection atm. For sylvan there ofc needs to be a special solution if they are brought back, but that isnt an issue atm.

Also, dont put a numer of hours on a fertility achievement. Using the spell should be enough.

IF achievement points can be used to unlock whatever you want rather than being tied to a specific bonus then i would also suggest that unlocking buildings/imps/units cost 1 point and getting a bonus costs 3,5 or 10 points depending on how many points you can be expected to get.

If we combine that with Kalles suggestion of increasing achievements so that you might have something like 5*4 achievements for kingdom and thus gaining 20+ achievement points per round then it would be good if you can get like 5 points in protection (for fertility, training workers, rezoning, constructing for example) that gets you the most basic unlocks. After that you will mainly be going for bonuses rather than unlocks (but maybe some late game unlocks as well) so need to save up a few achievements before you can get a bonus. If the 2nd tier achievements for instance are 100 spies and similar that you will likely reach during the first week then i think either having bonuses at 3-5 points you can get then works - or costing 10 points that you get after like two weeks - or maybe even better having some "good" that cost 10 and some not so good that cost 3-5 so you have the option of saving up for a better bonus if you want to.

About exploring and attacking. All attackers actually explore acres nowadays, it just takes longer.

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In his last Budget as chancellor in 2007, Gordon Brown said: “We will never return to the old boom and bust.”

Dante:

Ruler hero items do add gold and magic dust production, but the game is already balanced for those specific options, this will give a small boost to certain races/strategies, and small nerfs will need to be made to prevent certain strategies from getting an edge over others, assuming the game is currently balanced right of course.

Giving buffs to runaways is really bad for the game in my opinion, so I disagree with global achievements.

I also think the bonuses should help every race and every strategy, rather than having a bonus that doesn't help leshkin. Things like extra worker production help races with cheap workers much more than other races. Increasing home population is useless for races without homes and helps max pop races more than others.

Here is 7 examples of someone not building 1,000 of the "main defensive elite unit".

1. A vampire using only dhampires for offense and defense. That sounds dangerous during the night but if your fast about it and running away it is possible to keep enough defense at night using only dhampires.

2. A troll building only forest trolls for offense and defense. That gives him maximum turtle defense and maximum suicide offense when needed and it also gives him a huge advantage of the enemy not being able to tell how many forest trolls are home when he attacks, unless they get like 100 military spies and find a lucky military spy showing the smallest amount of forest trolls home.

3. An orc using only bloodblades for the same reason troll uses only forest trolls.

4. An elemental using only specs, because everyone else is playing a slow strategy and they allow him to keep attacking faster than everyone around him. Using all specs also gives him the benefit of the enemy not knowing how many units are home when his troops are home. He can switch to elites later, but your still hurting a specific strategy for quite a long time

5. The same strategy as an elemental but with another race running all specs for a while to try to run away or just doing it to force your enemies to overtrain defense which slows them down and gives your packmates an advantage, which can lead your pack to get the win.

6. A plaguebearer who builds only lumberyards summoning decayed ones for defense/offense and using 5 offense unit with his extra gold. He won't make the main 4 defense units, but it's a good strategy that can compete with the enemy. Nobody in my pack thought building only lumberyards with an attacking plaguebearer would be a good strategy, but I kicked ass with this strategy until I made the mistake of sending out too much defense on a stupid attack. I could have gotten second place behind the top illith had I played my cards right with this strategy,

7. New races that haven't been introduced will be limited in there ability to make new strategies, and will be forced into being built a certain way, because they will not fit into the way the achievement system works. This is hard to understand without seeing these races, but the ideas for new concepts are unlimited and I know these achievements will hurt specific race concepts and specific strategies that have not even been invented yet.

Some players don't use spies at all cause a realm mate finds information ops for them and they don't have to worry about things being stolen from them if they are a all gold race. The extra gold for troops can be the difference between being safe and getting invaded. It can also be the difference between having the offense to invade someone or being stuck waiting for a target. Yes it is rare, but it is still a possible strategy.

Making the achievement for gaining land rather than only for attacking/exploring is a legitimate option as everyone needs to gain land.

Now that I think about it pretty much every good strategy will eventually force you to rezone 100 acres within at least the first week of the round, so rezoning 100 acres is a fair achievement.

I also realize now that even exp players build all there land in protection, so as long as there is an exception for sylvan or any other race benefitting from barren land, this too would be an ok achievement.

I don't like making improvements an option, cause if your planning on doing an alchemy strat then exploring during protection and building as many diamond mines as possible as fast as possible is a viable strategy. Your relying on your ability to invest as much as possible early on and if you have to wait on your achievement to invest then your ruining another strategy option.

I don't want the game to favor specific strategies or hinder certain strategies, especially when it is designed to teach new players. If you do this you turn the game into a cookie-cutter strategy where everyone does the same thing to win and only the people who login more have the best chance to win.

I use different strategies that elite players think are crap, but at times have crushed those elite players into the ground. We need to encourage new ideas and strategies rather than box players into a single-minded game where there is only 1 way to play the game right and anyone who doesn't do that 1 best strategy is just another noob who sucks and is ridiculed by the "1337" players.

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You cannot define this.
There is nothing else like it.
It's how you react, no it's not what you say.
You're running from nothing you're running away.
-Steromud

I think it is awesome that you are so good at thinking out of the box Silencio, but uou seem to have some problems thinking out of the box regarding achievements i think.

What is it that makes you think..
... that achievements can never be changed if there is a need/argument for it?
... that all bonuses must be given to every player so that a reduction to worker cost is a waste for lesh etc, rather than having a bunch of possible bonuses and up to the player to select which ones to get?
... defensive elite must be defined as only the unit with the highest defensive value?
... the game is balanced for randomly assigning nice buffs to food/dust/gold etc from ruler hero items but couldnt be balanced for LESS random buffs of similar value? Wouldnt a random event be A LOT harder to balance than a not random event?
... improvements will be an option?
... that achievements cannot be made so they encourage MORE thinking out of the box rather than less?


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That being said i think you do bring up two viable points. No, i dont mean spies. I'm sure even Sven usually reaches a fair spa at some point of a round while yet being famous for never training spies. Even if there might sometime be someone not ever reaching .25 spa it is not a problem, just lower the number to .2 or whatever!

The first issue is what gets to be defined as defensive elite (2,3,6 of your examples. I dont consider 1&4 very viable, although the dhamp idea is pretty cool. And for 5 achievements doesnt matter anyway if it is just someone who wants to smack some threats early on and then die). I didnt consider that hybrids wouldnt be recognized as def elites, but it is a fair point. I dont think it is a big problem really, it could even be defined as whatever unit that doesnt have the lowest or second lowest value on defense and problem would be solved for most races. Or maybe even easier to make it elites so whatever unit that isnt one of the two cheapest counts (since amarathines and similar units might be tricky to code otherwise).

The second issue that i already brought up is the possible problem of buffing runaways that dont need it. Dunno if you read the suggestions i came up with, but i think i came up with several possibly ideas to limit the problem of runaways and some other potential issues. If a bonus costs 5 or 10 achievement points then even a super runaway that grabs a lot of global achievements in a row will get 1-2 extra bonus(es). And if as i suggested zip's boni are cut in half then that is the same as if that runaway would luck out and get two very good items on questing. Sure it is still a problem, but not as much of a problem although i do recognize it might need to be balanced somehow.

I'm sure one of the brighter brains around here will have a good solution to the runaway problem.

Silencio, I believe you are misunderstanding the goal of achievements. They are not guides encouraging certain play styles with their select race. You are right about encouraging different strategies, but you are discussing that in the wrong thread. Please post in the Wuaffle House if you believe you have an interesting strategy for races.

The goal (from what I understand) for achievements are to guides to help new players grasp general concepts about the game. Its also meant to be FUN. Someone may not need 0.25 SPA, but if they want the achievement, then more power to them. The important part is that they understand how to get 0.25 SPA. As Kalle stated, a graphical hierarchy tree will help accomplish this.

An achievement system gives a clear goal for players as well. Currently, I feel as new players join the game and dont understand what they are doing. Having something in front of them that is telling them to "Train workers" will make them think "What is a worker?" and strike a brain cell to actually look it up.

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The Age of Despair :: Round 2 :: 1 El Norte
The Age of Wisdom :: Round 4 :: 1 SmoochyWoochyPoochy
The Age of Wisdom :: Round 6 :: 1 Goblin Rings
The Age of Achievements :: Round 1 :: 1 Hufflepuff's Cup

Take for example a very successful game like Starcraft.

When you first start the game, you have no idea what the hell your doing unless you read the guide and instructions. Just like Elveron, but no one wants to spend forever reading before playing a game. Then a popup appears telling you to "Train a worker at your Command Center" and all of a sudden you know what you have to do, even if you dont know what a Command Center or worker is. Its now your job to figure out what those are and complete the task. It makes the player involved instantly, and I feel that what zip has created will accomplish the same.

They also have silly stuff like "Make 20 Queens in a single game." In the competitive scene, thats a stupid thing to do, but for some players, that sounds like a lot a fun.

The whole unlockement process if a completely different aspect, in my opinion. This is where strategical choices effecting the actual game will be made and are completely Elveron specific.

_________________
The Age of Despair :: Round 2 :: 1 El Norte
The Age of Wisdom :: Round 4 :: 1 SmoochyWoochyPoochy
The Age of Wisdom :: Round 6 :: 1 Goblin Rings
The Age of Achievements :: Round 1 :: 1 Hufflepuff's Cup

Maybe someone can help with both unlocks and achievements to do. Also add them to a specific order please.

I found out that a reduction to worker cost (or any other unit) isn't that easy to add so it won't be added.

Will there be experience play achievements as well like build so many acads or frost towers? what about first to one thousand exp, two thousand etc.? maybe have a land play and experience play achievements seperate so as not to encourage rainbow builds.

I can help zip. Maybe someone else too?

Dante> Please gather a team. You have almost free hands about what to add, yet some things should be avoided.

Do you think we have enough time to add this before the start of next round or should we delay it to round 1 in the new age?


quatrognome>You should talk to Dante about this.

Zip, I thought we were going to have a 3-week round instead of a 7-week round per poll only because we are going to implement the "Achievement System" next round? If it can't be done on time, perhaps we should have just the 7-week round next?

Also, a lot of people are going on vacation July/August, so it might be better to have the long round next and the "experimental" round in July/August.

_________________
Our pack's Royal Family Message every round now:

"Please don't hit active guys with huge OP--even if they leave land DP!!!"

Elveron doesnt stop for people on vacation! Personally, summer is the best time for players who are in school still.

I would like to help you, Dante! *starts to draft ideas*

_________________
The Age of Despair :: Round 2 :: 1 El Norte
The Age of Wisdom :: Round 4 :: 1 SmoochyWoochyPoochy
The Age of Wisdom :: Round 6 :: 1 Goblin Rings
The Age of Achievements :: Round 1 :: 1 Hufflepuff's Cup

Zip,

I dont think it will be a problem for us to sort stuff out in a couple days, but it depends on what you can code etc. Lets see what we can come up with and then see if you can code it.

Maybe we should have 7 weeks long round and make a good achievement system. I have the name of the new age ready already....The Age of Achievement