@080 I did raid gold last round... imagine that. Except i am talking about before oop.

I did build gold mines last round in protection. and yeah maybe the conversion to gold and lumber does come into effect later which is why i am talking about lowering the lumber cost a small bit to make it more reasonable. Especially after the removal of the seareaver cost reduction. I am not asking for much here but you want our opinions about the race changes and this is it.



I don't mind that. I really don't care about a small drop in what we can make but a massive drop in troops able to be built is a bit much. Has this happened to any other race this round? Any round for that matter?





Ummm yeah except i did run gold mines last round as i said earlier or it could be that the math you used is flawed. You compared a gold mine that makes 60 gold to a sawmill that makes 97.75 instead of the 115 it should make due to race penalty okay so yeah it is a savings of 1000 gold according your math, except for you aren't factoring in decay either. When you factor that in then the savings probably drops into a negative.



@ Quaffle Oh and though the boats aren't made of gold but the soldiers who make them probably were paid gold to make them. Storyline issues are a poor excuse for a change when they are that weak.


All i am asking is a minor tweak is that so wrong? I know that this game is usually balanced for land play so why is there a change that seems to only affect experience play and so negatively at that.

So you save 930 gold with the current system. In order for the loss of lumber to be equal you need to lose 1515 lumber from decay per hour. Considering your number of 118 vs 200 just train hourly longships... 200 units = 700 gold an hour in economy. And that is if you were actually training the full 200 at once.

Math beats logic so either the number of GM you ran last round were not more than the extra number of sawmills you must run this round or you are doing something different. If you lower the price of longships any more they will become too strong for land play. Another reason reavers were probably put back because that was too much of a buff.

PS. And if making races had nothing to do with the storyline do you think we should make dwarf all lumber cost instead or make vampires all food? The storyline is what originally shapes the race

The last time I checked ships are made of lumber and the reasoning to make them lumber is logical, justified and still IMO not a nerf. Making random statements of paying workers gold and blah blah blah is just weird.

_________________
Oh Eighty
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Wonderland says
he is pwning you with a wooden spoon!
Immor says
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That is why they each cost a worker. You do not pay your citizens in Elveron! pfft.

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@quatro: you need 50 to 60 longships at oop for max reduction in time. The very fact that you are trying to make 200 of them points to the abuse potential longship raids have at oop . With the current change if you are not able to make as many then I would say it's a good change even better because it actually reduces the prize of longships overall, making it more balanced for landplay.

@M80 that logic only flies if you consider that land player could do the same thing for the several rounds and none of them did. If it was so abuseable at oop why haven't more land players run barbs. I am sure the elites are more than capable to run it to the point of near abuse.

@Quaffle @080
Okay so you are telling me that storyline alone is enough to change the cost of a unit?

Seriously?

I know that logic has been shot down before on the forums. If that is the case then shouldn't there be deserts as a land type too? There aren't deserts in Elveron are there? So why have it in the story line. Actually technically a tundra can be a desert. so ignore this one.

what about lowering barbs exploring cost as well it is in the storyline too. Can we see this change? I wouldn't mind playing a barbarian explorer.

BTW what does high in the permafrost mean? Permafrost is perennially frozen soil in artic or subartic regions? given that a tundra is a nearly flat treeless plain should they have homes on mountains(or highlands) instead or at least as well as on tundras? That would be a cool change that fits the storyline.

I really appreciate that you say it is a buff, then admit it is a nerf, and don't seem to be flexible at all about it when you are asked to make a small tweak to it. I don't care anymore. You don't seem to listen when we voice our opinion as visible by xpers previous posts that got zero responses earlier in this thread. It really seems like a crap move. You talk about making gradual changes but then decide to do this. Please make up your minds.

You know what forget it. leave it alone. I don't even care anymore. Its fine. I will run it as is.

i can see quattro's point and you are admitting they have been nerfed.

as far as m80 and 080 pretty much is saying


is total crap to put it bluntly
WHAT LAND PLAY?!?!?!?! THE HIGHEST BARB LAND WAS THE XP (and XP's)

it has been made useless for land play -but was still interesting for xp - thats why xp'ers played it last round and highest BARB in the land category was the winning XP'er Blackbeard (wierd)


so not only is it useless for land - but you have just admittedly nerfed it for XP play too. So quattro has a point - either listen to the people that play the race and look at the rankings or just remove the bloody race because it is now almost unplayable in both respects.

If you disagree - you play barb land
cos i most certainly will not

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What has nobody else done? Lets do that but different :)

I have actually played land with barb so I know what I'm saying. I was doing very well with it till day 10 when I got suicided upon... later that round I changed to xp to support my realm and was able to get into top 10 in xp even though I started hitting at 14th day or so.

Barb may still not be a good choice for land play but certainly not unplayable like some other races like Mino !

Yes, it's a little thematic. Ships are made mostly of lumber. It would be possible to dismantle your ships upon coming to a new land.

1) You can destroy your ships to build incoming land (but likely you will have many sawmills, so it might be unnecessary). No need to store up hours of lumber that can be FB'd (ask Nost Gam about this), you will always have a permanent stash of lumber waiting for you. If you need an example of this style of play, look at any effective animator strat (animators should run spec d the whole round, if only for lumber when land comes in).

This is a buff.

2) Longship prices were changed for mid round gold income. Before this point, it's cheaper to use lumber for building ships.

This is a buff for most of the round.

3) For most strats, it's best to build GMs in protection, and later in the round it's better to destroy the gms for homes. This change allows players to build less buildings that they will have to destroy later in the round.

This is a buff for week 2.

4) Post-OOP, it's necessary to build large amounts of defense. Sawmills only produce lumber. Defense cost gold and ore.

This is a nerf for strats that use large amounts of longships for OOP.

5) Peasants & Workers produce only gold. Longships cost lumber. Expers cannot rely on their base gold income to produce longships. Expers will have to build less academies/hospitals to build more sawmills.

This is a nerf for expers (but they will have more gold to build a larger military).

FFS the race is still playable for land and xp. If you don't like it pick another damn race. If its unplayable for xp then another one is obviously better. So play it.

If you get some numerical evidence to show the race is unplayable for either land or xp that would be great. Training 118 instead of 200 in 48 hours of the round is not enough. I still don't understand how that happened anyway

_________________
Oh Eighty
____________________
Wonderland says
he is pwning you with a wooden spoon!
Immor says
i use chopstick

@080
Excuse me for expressing my opinion on a race i like. I am sorry that i would do something so stupid. I mean this is the internet how dare i express my opinion. I gave you mathematical evidence. If you don't like it I am sorry. That isn't my fault.

I believe dev team gave a good logical explanation for the change. Are you not satisfied ?

You should NOT be able to mass train longships for oop without paying a price IMO.

I like Acetels spell... It was a reading comprehension fail.

I replied to the fine print under his post. I thought he was suggesting the units produce resources base on how much OP the unit had. Totally missed the extra cas and attack part. . .

Very cool spell.

10 hr return times should be something unique. It will no longer be unique if every race has 10 hr return times on elites.

Good Races
Human: 10 hr train time on elites
Gryphon: 10 hr return times on everything
Shinobi: 10 hr return times on OP spec / OP elite
Tollspry: 10hr returns on many units.
Barbarian: 12-14 hr returns... but longships can reduce it to 7-9 (without affecting incoming land)

Evil Races:
Vampire: 10 hr return times on everything
DD: 10hr return on spec, 9hr return on hybrid, 14hr on off elite
Animator: 12hr returns... but can HC very easily. Effectively 9-12hr returns.

The only good race without reduced return times is sylvan. Tollspry only have been in the game 1 round, it will not completely ruin the racial concept to have 12 hr return times instead. They get to keep the short return times on harmonizers because that unit is near useless post-oop. (and there are few races with 10hr specs, but 12hr elites).

@ Fergy Thanks I just didn't like the initial reduction as it is a bit much but your explanation makes it seem not so bad so i appreciate that. I only sim'd through oop like i normally do. It will be something to adjust to. I do appreciate the explanation though thanks again.

@ Fergy
Sounds reasonable. I was only curious

@ Quatro
I'm glad someone was able to make sense of it to you. Sorry my math of blatant cheaper units didn't suffice. I will use reason and logic next time as well for better communication of my point.

_________________
Oh Eighty
____________________
Wonderland says
he is pwning you with a wooden spoon!
Immor says
i use chopstick