Hi guys,

I've been thinking a lot over the past few days about ways to improve elveron/dominion/utopia type wargames. Basically, I think the three issues are:

1) Too steep a learning curve for newcomers.
2) Not enough healthy player interaction.
3) Cheating.

I've thought about certain simple changes one might might to address the above issues. Note that I copy/pasted it from a word document, hence the weird formatting.

Anyway, would love to hear your thoughts!

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Minor Differences
1) Substantially simpler rules
a. Makes the learning curve lower for newcomers, while not decreasing the options for veterans.
b. Examples:
i. Only one resource, gold.
ii. Merging of spy/mage units.
iii. Only one land-type, and thus no rezoning.
iv. Useless buildings removed.
2) Balanced races
a. Basically, so you don’t suck if you choose a relatively “crappy” race.
3) In general, quantity over quality. Realistically, there is no reason for farms, towers, and other buildings which everyone needs to accomplish basic tasks. Similarly, only one land type.
4) Increased player interaction. This is done through:
a. in game chat channels (one for your current realm, and another for general chat.)
b. Free association of players. I.e., there is a pack system like other games, but I suspect that I’ll allow “packs” to be of size like 10, and realm size like 15. In particular, players can be “voted” out of the realm, and others invited to join.
i. A priori, this seems abusable. However, I think there is a fairly good way to “incentivize” against this. The key is, I’ll keep statistics on the “strength” of players from round to round. If a pack then adds 5 other unpacked top guys, they can choose to do so. However, if they choose 5 scrubs, and mold them into top 50 players, there will be SUBSTANTIAL benefits that will accrue to the members of such a pack, not only in that round, but in subsequent rounds. Obviously, there are many details to take care of, but this general principle (combined with being able to vote “stupid” players off the island) should ensure that anyone who is willing to learn to play will be able to do so. In particular, if you are a new player, and login, you can immediately start chatting in the “global” chat window. If a realm has space and sees that you are competent, they’ll be very inclined to pick you up, for selfish reasons.
5) Merge spellcasting/spying into one unit/page. A bit redundant, just really unnecessary complexity for a newcomer, I think.
6) Rather than making protection 60 hours long, I think I’d rather have a system where you get 60 “turns” which you can then take whenever you want. Thus, when a new round begins, we can make protection like 2 hours long, which should be enough time for everyone to spend their turns and produce troops.
7) To reduce cheating, require either a cell phone or a Paypal account to play. If cell phone, then the game sends a text message to your cell phone which is used to confirm. If paypal account, then a token charge (under $1) will be enough verify your identity. Once your identity is verified, you can play for as many rounds as you like without any sort of verification. Obviously, for players who lack cell phones or cannot afford the $1 to verify their identities, this idea would be problematic. However, for 95%+ of the population, I doubt it will be an issue.

Hmm interesting.

I'm not sure about the paypal/cell phone thing though. While I would imagine that 99% of america over 10 has a cell phone, I am skeptical of how many would actually use their number for that purpose. Personally if I was trying out a new game I would never paypal anything, as I tend to sign up for a lot of various things and then completely forget, never come back, or simply decide it sucks upon sign up, and as for the cell phone part, well I always refuse those online quizzes and stuff that want to text u with the results etc. I in fact rarely ever will put my cell phone down on anything online, even online purchase orders, simply because it is the one area of my life that is successfully not spammed yet with some sort of crap.

As for making the learning curve easier, I'm not sure that really gain or retain you more players, but rather simply give you a "different" player base. I've played a lot of beta games where the curve was certainly easier and they mostly just attract different personalities rather than more, so I guess it depends on what your ultimate goal is.

People looking for simply free games in general will probably play just about anything off and on in their free time. People looking for specifically for strategy games might get bored quicker if the learnign curve is too easy.

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I don't have a dirty mind, I have a sexy imagination. XD

haha oh i like number 6. that would be really cool. also number 4 would be good for retaining players i think. if the player interaction is good people are more inclined to stick around even if they havent figured out the game yet. It gives them some incentive or somethign to keep coming back for even if they suck. Also something that worked well in utopia was the huge reminder link upon sign in to visit your realm forum etc. it did not go away until u actually clicked and visited the forum.

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I don't have a dirty mind, I have a sexy imagination. XD

Hrm, interesting points Scorp. I just think some sort of mechanism for tying accounts to identities is necessary to prevent cheating. Creating multiple accounts is just too easy otherwise. Plus, it makes the penalties for cheating much more steep...would you risk cheating if it means being possibly banned for multiple rounds?
I agree with you that there are privacy issues involved, and it might reduce the number of people who want to play. But if it helps to solve the larger problem of cheating, it might be worth it.
Also, is it really such a big deal to give out your cell phone number online? You need one to create a gmail.com account, and Facebook uses it for authentication. Orbitz uses it to call you regarding your flight, etc, etc. Doesn't really seem like a huge deal to me.

Regarding protection: I definitely think some sort of initial turn-based thing is needed. Most other games don't require 60+ hours before you can actually INTERACT with the wider world. Obviously, it really makes it unlikely that people who randomly come across the game will stick.

Regarding learning curve: I'm just not convinced multiple resources/landtypes, tons of mandatory buildings (farms, towers, etc) really add a lot to the game.
For 90% of players, dealing with resources is just an annoying chore. For the other 10% of players, who have chosen a race for which resource usage has strategic aspects (e.g., dwarf, zon), then there is a loss. All I am saying is that one could remove multiple resources, and create other races which also have interesting strategic aspects...
Similar points hold for multiple landtypes.
Farms and other mandatory buildings are not only an annoying detail, but they actually reduce creativity. Seriously, think about it. Everyone has to build at least 7%+ farms. This means 7%+ buildings that EVERYONE must build, regardless of strategy. If it were up to me, I'd make troops require a gold "upkeep" figure, that essentially has the same effect as food consumption. This frees up 7%+ land for a variety of other interesting purposes.

Many good ideas but in particular I would like to make protection turn-based. Its current design is just a legacy from other games and seems to have little purpose. Old players want to get on with the round as soon as possible and new players want to see some action and not wait for 2,5 days (ie go inactive)

There is no action nor is there any skill involved that could not be replicated through turns. Besides it is stupid that one should have to log in at certain hours only to construct some buildings or you are instantly punished before the "real" round has even started. The entire protection period could easily be removed and replaced by 60 turns that can be performed over the registration period.

There are many reasons for Protection and some of them seems very important to me.

1) Time to learn the game

Protection leaves you with enough time to go through any FAQ/Guide/Tips you can find. Let's say there's only 2 hours of Protection to give you time to use your turns, you'll end up with tons of new players building random stuff, making no defense or way too much. Most of them will quit when they'll see how raped they got.

2) Coordination of available ressources

If you go without Protection, you'll have to extend a lot more the Pre-protection time if you want "OOP" to happen. What i mean is that if anybody can start directly at start up, you'll end up with lucky people joining much faster than others for the round and raping the farms before anybody else can do anything about it.

Of course, if you extend the pre-protection period, you end up just moving the waiting time that is Protection somewhere else and not actually "help" the "action now" crew.

If, instead, you rely on annoncing the sign-up start long in advance, you'll end up with the lucky gang that happen to have the 2 hours necessary for the use of the turns having a much bigger advance that now, as they'll have some extra tick compared to those who couldnt make it for the sign-up.

More to come, but i need to head back to work.

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We can't hear the truth
When we kneel down
In front of what we think
We cannot change

I think some sort of tutorial could help new players a lot. Think of it--many video games have tutorials or at least gradually help the player play through the first mission with hints or tips. This could be done as a "simulated kingdom" so the player doesn't actually affect his/her real kingdom yet.
Also helpful would be a well-written and detailed guide, but one that is not daunting to look at either. It could be broken up into several pages and sections. Also, having links to relevant areas is good (Elveron has that now in some places). What could also be helpful is, say, if you bounce, on the failed attack page is a link to an explanation of why you might have bounced.
I don't know. Just some thoughts.

Hi Bro, please respond to the JMTP/bro discussion thread.

We need to look at a larger scope though. Even if we shorten the OOP timing, that can lead to various abuses such as easier multis and there will be a shortage of targets oop (everyone who's not a farm will at least train a few units if they go through all the hour changes) and fewer inactive registrations.

I am all for nerfing OOP farming and exploring in general. It introduces strategy as opposed to brainless target searching and farming at oop.

yeah OOP is boring...

but i actually kinda like it that way
if it was turn based, develop a perfect OOP build, and half the playerbase will be coming out of OOP on 20k+ networth with the same build and same units. its kinda like the hourchange function we have during simulation. i could just keep resetting and HC-ing till i get absolute perfect timing on my build to maximise my gold OOP

i understand that ppl find it annoying to log on to build some houses, but its part of the game. if u spend more time, you do better. the turns system just sounds too easy to me...

having said that, itd probably benefit me the most, since i tend to miss critical moments during OOP, but it just doesnt feel right @_@

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~i am a rabbit~
~watch me run~
~run rabbit run~
Lifetime: http://www.elveron.com/elveron/archive/ ... n=lifetime

indeed complexity does not equal fun and in most cases its counter-productive to popularity.

the problem is that you are asking ppl who cannot - are unable or unwilling, with some exceptions, think out of the box when it comes to changes like you propose. no-rezone, no protection, simplifying other aspects like resource production or info gathering, been suggested before and rejected. why? because you are asking the "wrong" ppl..

to have a successful or popular or fun game by design is not rocket science really because there is so much inspiration and examples to learn from everywhere around the net, the rest is marketing.

good luck

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I have personality disorder.

I've actually thought about the learning curve. In many games you start very simple for instance Warcraft III. From the start you can only build a few buildings but after a while, when the town hall is upgraded, you can build many more buildings. From the start you can only train a few units but later in the the game, many more. The strategy here could be either to make a fast- or slow strategy. Players like to get new features. Finally I've upgrade and now I can build this new buildings etc.

Could something similar be done in Elveron?
Make it easier but still keep the strategies. Think like this, from the start you can only train the basic two units in the game. Either defense- or offense unit. They only cost gold. Remove a lot buildings from the start only. We keep the basic ones that we need, like gold mines, farms (farms if we consider to still have food in the game) etc. Making a tutorial would be very easy now. The game could be explained in steps instead of explaining everything at once.

We could make it possible for the player to build new building and train new units by reaching some sort of goal. Still remember the strategy here is how fast you reach the goal and what you want to unlock.
Maybe you have to upgrade a main building and that cost much resources. Either try to grow fast and don't upgrade or grow slower but upgrade faster.

Things that could be unlocked
Kingdom Improvements
Realm Improvements
Improvement bonuses

Different buildings
Units and workers
Attack types
Spells

What would you unlock first? One player maybe unlock the worker as first thing while someone else unlock a new attack type.

Positive Effects
More different strategies.
Easier to explain the game.
Easier to learn the game but still at least as complicated as now
The feeling of archiving different goals.
Each race could be played in many different ways.

Negative Effects
The game would be even more complicated
Old players don't always like this huge changes

Comments?

Yeah, I would be one of the 'old players' not liking the huge change. Mainly because I cannot really see this happening to Elveron without completely changing the game play. And I say that because this would change the way people play from the start. And changing the start of course changes the end =/

And I guess the main problem I see is the military units. I completely understand the objective. Start with very little so the game is very simple to understand. It much easier to train from two units, than it is to with 6 units (Im not really counting the worker much). Like, you would destroy SO many races doing that. Ones Im thing of are Elemental, Shinobi, Human, Dwarf, Troll, Amazon. All races that have been played with different combinations of their military in the beginning and still found success. And to add, the same would go for buildings =/

But this could be done, if when registering you have an option to choose which 'gameplay' you want. Either "Novice" which would be chosen by players in their first two or three rounds, and "Veteran." Veteran path would change nothing, everything would be available from the start (hour 0). However, Novice path would only allow you to choose from 4-6 races (2-3 from good/evil) and limit your choices of military and buildings as you explained. It would include a tutorial that 'forces' the player to play a certain way. As in construct homes and diamond mines, and make safe attacks etc. Unlocking, and learning as they play, just as you explained zip.

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All I would add to this in response to zip is that regardless of what the vets want etc big changes could have some large effects on the game. I mean for one, the changes described would change this game from elveron to something else, and I would just like to point out that in doing that you always run the risk of morphing into a game that is no longer attractive to the previous playerbase. This could have profound effects on the game.

I kinda of feel like most people are against changes (najor ones) because it changes the game to something different. I mean, as an example if I buy a football game, but then all these changes happen and all of a sudden its a baseball game, there is a significant chance that i never wanted to play a baseball game in the first place.

Hmmm,


I have a suggestion, what if you give novices some time lagging bonus... maybe extra gold coming in over time or simply extra +5% population to the game making it(possibly) slightly easier vs other experienced players. You could choose that option at creation of the kingdom...


But the trick is, you cannot add game to your game Lifetime records if you have 3 or more already there, for me I have like 30 games in my life time records so it if I choose that option it would not get recorded there.

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Gnomes, Dwarves, and such ((despite what Lord of the Rings, and some rpgs, might want you to believe)) are nature spirits.

I agree with Quaffle. You should somehow keep the game the same for the veterans and ADD something new for new players. That something new, the 'novice' style, should not be better/worse than 'veteran' play style(if better: veterans play the novice style caus there are some leet strats possibilities in there -> the game changes completely. if worse: unfair to noobs ofc and veterans will say to noobs 'not to bother' playing 'novice'). The novice/tutorial-ish gameplay shouldnt have too many restrictions:

*All the units (cuz there are lots of strat/races that are well/better of with elites in Protection). Also all the races! With good tutorials its possible to make all the races playable for noobs, but there should be a warning for diffcult races: Do you really wanna play Terra/Animator? We recommend you to play an easier race if you are new to the game. I can think of the situation that noobs that REALLY want to play a race that is locked in 'novice' level, so they will just play 'veteran' level and end up never learning the game.
*Some minor restrictions in buildings (no spires etc), but leave most of buildings available for out-of-the-box-strats
*No need to 'pay' to unlock something, but rather do something you do normally too to unlock something, like: make 3 succesfull hits to unlock *something*. And not like, pay 30,000 gold to unlock *something*

After having said this, it looks like its all about the tutorials and forcing players to play the way they should play. That reminds me of Orkfia, if you make an account there, the important links for the start of the round are highlighted (I think GB can tell more about that). I'll give an example: When a new players register an account, first of all, put a bigass notification in there: VERIFY YOUR ACCOUNT NOW OR YOU CANT PLAY!

Then on the left-side menu, highlight the Construction, Rezone and Magic link in Yellow/Green, so that players will go there at first. Highlight the military link too, but when on the military page, warn that 'its not needed to get military when in protection, but you should get them BEFORE protection ends'

In those pages (construction, rezoning, military) under the normal text (construction costs xx gold and yy lumber), put a few (highlighted) lines that tell the player what to do (tutorial): Build Homes/GM for gold, towers for dust for spells, Diamond Mines for imrovement. Dont build spires. Dont build taverns yet. Etc..
This can be done on all pages: just explain what they see and what is good to do and what is better to wait with.

So far my input, sorry for the messy layout and probably typos